Our Blog

Carmen Kahiu

Episode 44: The Life-Changing Power of Mentoring, with Carmen Kahiu

Good afternoon, everyone. My name Lynn S. Evans, I am the host of Power of the Purse Podcast. There was a time in my life, not too long ago, when I believed three things about money. One, women are not supposed to talk about or be included in any conversations about money. Two, women don’t have the natural ability to understand anything about money. Three, men know best how to manage money. Those truths I made up about money guided my for years, until I realized money was not a foreign language or some other obscure academic exercise. It was something I could no only understand, but teach to other women.

Too many times I’ve heard stories from women who ought to know better, but didn’t, until they were forced to because of divorce, widowhood, job loss or the approach of retirement. This podcast will add another chapter to a rich history of successful women who in face with some personal challenges, found the ability to step beyond them. We’ll examine some of the truths they made up about money from their life experiences and how that shaped the path they chose.

My mission is to help women have a healthy, positive relationship with money. With that in mind, my guest today is Carmen Kahiu. Carmen is the operations manager of the Geisinger Health Plan. Welcome, Carmen.

Hello, thank you very much, Lynn, for having me on. This is such an honor.

I’m so happy that we finally put this all together and said, “Yay, it’s time to do this.” Let me just give people a quick story about your background so we have an understanding of where you came from and how that affected everything about who you are.

She’s the eldest of four children born to Henry and Carmen Foreman. Her father was born in North Carolina and he’s African-American. Her mother is from, am I pronouncing this right? Quito?

That’s correct.

Quito, Ecuador. When they met, neither spoke the other’s language, but her father quickly learned and to this day it’s like he was a native speaker. As each of them were born, he insisted that Spanish be the language spoken in the house. Therefore, English is technically her second language. She doesn’t know whether they realized what an asset that would be to her and her siblings as they grew up. She attended a small Catholic grade school and high school. Ironically, she ended up in a small school in Dallas, Pennsylvania, where she really blossomed.

That experience opened her eyes to government service and service learning. She said she believes the strength and character values her mom and dad instilled in them growing up for the same things fostered at the college, as a result, helped mold her into who she is. Her passion lies in mentoring others to live a life that is prosperous. She loves speaking to students and developing her staff to move onto higher-level positions.

This is a great story. You know that I’ve told you before that I could not wait to have you on as a guest, because I love your story. Your story is so different from the rest of everybody else I’ve ever had as a guest on the show. I love the combination of all the cultures that you’re involved with. Let’s start there and let me just start by saying, obviously, you grew up in this country, but where did you grow up?

Yeah. I did. I grew up in New York City. We lived in Manhattan, on the corner of Lexington and Park. We lived in a high-rise, which most of the buildings in New York City are like high-rises, on the 12th floor. Having lived there, we were city kids, we knew how to get ourselves from the bus to the train, to the park, just anywhere in between. That’s where I grew up. It was right there…in the middle of the city.

It sure is. Then, you moved into New Jersey, didn’t you, at some point?

Yeah. We did. We moved probably when I was just about ready to go into eighth grade. We moved to New Jersey. Some folks would go, “Okay, that’s not bad.” But for someone who lived in the city where you walked out and there was the bus right in front of the building, or you can go down to the corner and there was the subway. I moved to New Jersey where it was like, “Where’s the bus? Why are there no buses around here? There’s no trains!”

Where’s the subway?

Yeah. Where’s the subway? We couldn’t figure out. You had to have a car. It was very, very difficult. I thought I was already in the country, living in New Jersey. Then, as you mentioned, I went to school in Dallas, Pennsylvania. I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I am really out in no man’s land now.” I think I’ve determined that I’m really more of a country girl rather than a city girl.

At this point, maybe. But, I think it must have been a major culture shock for you in both of those moves. You went from okay, there were buses, there were, maybe, trains when you were in New Jersey that would take you into Manhattan. But once you got out to Dallas, Pennsylvania, you had nothing girlfriend.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I had my little walking shoes that I’d walked down from the college down to center city Dallas, which at that point, had the Franklins, the old Franklins and the food store, IGA, I think it was.

I think you had two blocks, that was the entirety of Dallas, Pennsylvania.


Did you also tell me, when we were talking about this before, that your mom never knew how to drive?

That’s right. As I said, we lived in New York City, there was no reason for us to drive, we had lots of transportation, there was ways that we can get around. My dad was a truck driver. During the week he was gone doing long hauls, come home on the weekends. We’d go somewhere, anywhere, we’d always do something as a family. When we moved to New Jersey, she didn’t drive. I tell you a funny story.

We had to figure out a way to get ourselves around, we each had bikes; we rode our bikes and stuff. My mom had a three-wheel bicycle, with a little basket, and that’s what she utilized for her and her four little chicklets there. We were all roaming around New Jersey. That’s how we’d go to the little local store to get milk, eggs, bread, whatever. That’s how we got around, during the week when my dad wasn’t around.

Wait a minute. You had three siblings?

I had three siblings, yes. Myself, my sisters.

She could take all of you in the little tricycle, did she?

She had one. My brother was in the little tricycle that she had, then, one of us had the basket, either my other sister or myself would carry my other little sister with them. Yeah. It was an experience. To this day we laugh. We’re like “Remember Mom, you had that three-wheel bicycle?” Until we finally got a neighbor who taught her how to drive. He was very, very patient. Very patient. He taught her. She learned, probably she was about 47 years old when she learned how to drive. She has never had a speeding ticket in her life, because she does not speed.

Did she ever drive into Manhattan?

God, no. No, to this day.

To this day she will take a train, she will take a bus, but she will not drive into Manhattan, absolutely not.

Yeah. I get that, loud and clear. How did your parents meet? I love this that they couldn’t even speak a common language.

Yeah. My mom lived Quito, Ecuador, which she always had… She told us when she was little, we’ve been to Ecuador several times, we went to my grandma’s house and she said right above where they lived, you would see the planes, she’d always tell her siblings in Ecuador, “I’m going to be in one of those planes one day, I’m going to be on one of those planes one day.” She had an adventurous spirit. She decided, her and a friend of hers, decided that they were going to get on a plane and they did.

They came up to New York City, they had some friends out there, they moved in with some friends, she met my dad and my uncle. She was dating my dad and her friend was dating my uncle, ironically. Initially, she had maybe three words that she knew how to say, other than that, she didn’t speak anything, any part of the language. But, as they continued to date, my dad learned how to speak the language, Spanish, which to me is just amazing, he was 19, doing labor jobs and things, but he learned how to speak the language. We actually were rummaging through their closet one time and we found the letters that he used to send to my mom in Spanish, which is kind of neat.

It was really neat. He learned it. When he learned it, he wanted all of us to speak that language. She has a very heavy accent, she speaks English, but you can tell that she is Hispanic, because of the accent. I say, “Dad, you were really ahead of your time” because he wanted each of us, he said, “No one will speak English in this house.” Everybody speaks Spanish. Even when his brothers came over, they would speak in English, but he would, when he was talking to my mom or any of us were around, they only spoke Spanish. Only spoke Spanish. He was determined that that was what we were going to do.

Living in New York City, everybody spoke Spanish. It’s just a common practice. The school that I went to, my best friend was, believe it or not, his dad was Chinese and his mother was Puerto Rican. He spoke English, Chinese and Spanish, but everybody spoke it, everybody spoke that language. It was no big deal.

That is so amazing to me. The other thing I think about when I think about your background, your father from North Carolina, must have had a heavy southern accent.


Yes. I can’t just imagine your mother trying to learn English listening to his southern drawl.


When he would get together with his brothers and they spoke English, they probably spoke a very colloquial English. Whatever it was that they spoke about in the South and the way they spoke, was not what the people in New York would speak when they called it English.

Right. Exactly.

You don’t sound like you have a New York accent. You don’t sound like you have a southern accent. Where did you pick up the English?

Exactly. I think it was years of going to school. Because one of the things that I truly struggled with, first of all being the firstborn, when I went to school I knew absolutely nothing. It was all foreign to me. I spent a lot of time, being in a catholic school, with a lot of the nuns. Before school, I would have a tutor. After school, I would sit with the principal, they kind of tutored me, then, I’d go home. Again, I said I lived in a high-rise, there was a teacher who lived on the 11th floor. I’d go home, we’d have dinner and my mom would go “Okay come on” and she’d take me down to the neighbor’s house, that neighbor would help me with my homework, help me with my studies.

If I didn’t have her, there was an entire family, this wonderful Irish family that was seven girls, believe it or not. Their dad was a teacher. I would go down there and sometimes he would tutor me as well. I think, over the years of all these folks just talking to me, trying to learn the language, really understanding what my lesson plans were, what I was supposed to do, I just did what I needed to do, because it is difficult to learn English, it truly is, really.

I have to give you so much credit, because it is so crazy. The rules don’t apply for most everything. When you learn something, you have to unlearn for all these exceptions to these rules. I just give you a lot of credit. The one thing I will say is that I know, having been a language major myself in college, that the best time for anyone to learn a language is as you were, the age you were, and your siblings. Because, you’re like sponges. When you hear another language it doesn’t take too long for you to figure it out what’s going on.

It was probably harder for your father to learn Spanish at his age, than it was for you to learn English at your age.

Absolutely. You’re absolutely right. Which is why I think it’s amazing. When I tell him I’m like “You really were ahead of your time.” I do think that it is amazing that he did manage to learn it and to this day speaks it, fluently. He can go down to Ecuador or any country that speaks the language, it’s like he’s a native, it’s just unbelievable. I think it’s great.

How about your siblings, do they all know both languages as well?

They do. They all do. Little by little, as we have our own children, we try to speak to our own children in Spanish. What happens is because we’re not in New York City, it’s not as embedded as it was when we were in New York City. Now, there’s a large Hispanic population. Back when we were growing up, there wasn’t as large a Hispanic population. The kids all understand Spanish, if they hear us talking, they completely understand, but they won’t speak it. Yeah. Because I think they were … It’s kids growing up, it’s high school, it’s like “I don’t want to be different, I want to be like everybody else.”

My granddaughter, she’s very adaptable, she’s right up there in there. I think it’s just the times, the times have changed.

That’s two incredible cultures. You had southern African-American culture, you had the Ecuadorian culture as Spanish culture, now you’ve married a man who is yet from another culture.


You guys are a melting pot, I love it.  So tell me about how you and your husband met.

Yes. I went to the College of Misericordia, which my first year was an all-girl school. I had a friend of mine in grade school when we moved to New Jersey. We went on to high school, there was a family there that kind of helped us along the way. My mom never went to college, my dad never went to college, actually my dad said, “I don’t think that she’s ready for college, I want her to stay here, let her do something around here.” My mom was very determined and she wanted me to go to college. So with this friend of ours, she told us about Misericordia, College of Misericordia, and her mother was actually the one that took me up to that college. I walked around, it was perfect, it was small enough, I got to meet a lot of the professors, the ratio was very small. “Great,” I said, “I’m going to apply.” I got in, it was wonderful.

The second year that I was at Misericordia, it was opened to male students. Out of about 20 male students that came to the college that year, one of them was a student from Africa. He was from Nairobi, Kenya. He was kind of different, a scrawny little thing, but he was cute. Nobody could understand him. He’d go to the cafeteria, we used to have these social functions and things, he would be speaking, and it just seemed like nobody understood him.

What language was he speaking?

He was actually speaking English, but the accent is so heavy that when people hear a different language, they hear the accent first. It takes their ear a little bit of time to get adjusted to…”Wait, I’m supposed to be listening to what they’re saying, not their accent.” I think, because I was so used to my mom, she had an accent and everybody that we were around, it was no problem, I completely understood him. We started talking. We would go to lunch together, we’d go to dinner together, we had a couple of classes together. As time went on, we became friends, we went on to dating and stuff. I said to him once, I’m like, “What attracted you to me?” He’s like, “You were very understanding about my accent.” He says like, “Didn’t want to keep repeating myself.” Because that’s what he would get. “Can you tell me that again?”

We became friends, then, we were in a couple of the organizations together. We just did a lot of different things together. That’s how we met.

When did the magic appear?

The magic appeared, believe it or not, after we got out of school. Yeah. We talked all throughout college, everything was fine, we were great, and then I moved back to Jersey. He, because obviously, foreign students can’t really travel back and forth like that, he would stay at the college with the sisters. He had my number, he came over to our house. I said, “Why won’t you come over? It’s summer time, come over, take some time.” He met my family, he was very gracious. If he meets you, he’ll say, “Oh, lady.” He kept calling me lady, he kept calling my mom lady, he was just very charming.

After that, we stayed in touch, he graduated, I graduated, we kind of separated for about six months, then we ended up meeting again, in Wilkes-Barre, we started talking again. Then, we just kept going on from there.

Okay. I’m going to go back to some of your career stuff here, because after you graduated, you said you traveled a bit for the job, you were doing sales and marketing, you were in charge of 17 stores, that’s a lot of traveling.

It was. It really was a lot of traveling.

When did you guys have time to get together?

We did a lot of phone conversations. We did a lot of phone conversations. He was very persistent. It didn’t matter whether I was in New York, Philadelphia or Florida, he would always call me “What hotel are you going to be staying at? Where are you going to be?” He was very persistent. We did a lot of talking on the telephone, he was looking for a job, and he was already working at different places. A lot of times on the weekends, when I’d come home, where I’d say, “You know what? I’m going to be in New York.” He’d come out to New York. He also traveled somewhat between Baltimore, he’d go to Baltimore and DC with his job.

Sometimes we’d meet up and just go “Okay, let’s go to DC for the weekend. I’ll be in New Jersey, you’ll be in Maryland, let’s meet somewhere in between.” We would do that type of stuff. It was fun, because it always seemed like an adventure. It always seemed like a big adventure, it was fun.

You were traveling with your job, he had a job down in the DC area, what made you move from what you were doing to your job with Sallie Mae?

Traveling is great, it’s fabulous, when you’re in your 20s, you don’t have any responsibilities, you can bunk in with someone, it’s fabulous. Then, as you realize, “Okay, I really need to start figuring out what I’m going to do, I’d like to have a home, I’d like to have a retirement, I’d like figure out what I’m going to do and make sure that I can do it when I’m not working.” That’s when I thought, “I need to find a job.”

We were talking, him and I were talking, we wanted to settle down in some place. His job happened to change. So I applied at Sallie Mae and at that point, Sallie Mae had just acquired a bank in Puerto Rico. Obviously they needed folks that spoke Spanish. I applied for the job and I got the job. From there, I just continued to work my way up to the point that I got into management over there and stayed there for 23 years. John had just left the DC area, he was looking for a position and he applied, he got a job, because he was very good with the financing, contracting area, again, as I said, they just brought on this new bank, they needed someone to review all the bank information, all the contracts and stuff, he fit that bill. We ended up at Sallie Mae together.

They didn’t have any problems with two people… Were you married at the time?

We were dating, we got married after. I think we were there like three months before we got married. No, they did not have any problems with that, no.

That’s good. That’s really good. Then you made a big move, you went from a quasi government agency, Sallie Mae, into healthcare.

Yes, I did.

What was behind that decision?

Sallie Mae is fabulous. You learn. They have cutting-edge technology, I had learned so much there, and I heard about the entire expansion that Geisinger was doing, I knew the state was going to make the Medicaid population part of a managed care organization, so I thought…one of my goals is mentoring others and really working with other people.” I thought, “You know what? I’m going to see if I can get a job at Geisinger.” The Medicaid population is a population that really needs advocacy, that’s something that I would love to do, so I applied.

I went through a couple of interviews, I was thankful enough to get hired and I’ve been here ever since, managing the Medicaid and the CHIP line of business. I say to everybody, “I loved what I did at Sallie Mae, I truly loved my job here.” I love what I do, I love talking to the members, I love being their advocate, I really enjoy letting my agents know what they’re doing every day to help our members change their lives and become better from a health perspective, from everything that we do with our members, it’s just great.

Your role is with what’s called the Geisinger Health Plan Family, is that what it is?


How is that different than Geisinger’s Health Plan in general?

What we do is, we deal specifically with the folks that get their eligibility from the county assistance office, from the Department of Human Services. We manage that population. Whereas the other folks are managed by their commercial plans, their third-party plans, their employee plans, we deal with the folks that are under the DHS, Department of Human Services.

Okay. One of the things that you mentioned before, I’d like to explore that a little further, is about how much you love to mentor people who start with you and watch them go up the ranks. How has that become more of an opportunity for you here at Geisinger than it was at Sallie Mae…or same thing?

I think it’s the same thing, just a different line of business, but it is the same thing. I am very proud to say, if I’m going to boast for a little bit, I’m very proud to say that all of the folks that have worked with me or for me, they have said to me, “I learned so much from you, you really helped me to move on, I learned so many lessons.” That’s something that I think we, as women, should be proud of. We, now, are starting to realize that…I know one of the things that you advocate for is that we had the experience that men kind of knew best, and now, as we see women moving on to the levels that they’re moving on to and doing the things that they’re doing. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of helping that next generation get to where they want to be.

Mentoring is an essential part of helping the next generation get to where they want to be. Click To Tweet

Sometimes, you need someone to help you out, you need someone to say, “Hey, why don’t you do this this way?” Or “You know what? I did this and it worked for me.” I don’t want to say that it was I have more of an opportunity here, I think I have the same opportunity. Different people, the more people I can get to, that’s what I’m looking for.

I think there’s something else in what you’re saying that is something we need to acknowledge at this particular point in the evolution of women in management. That is that we have always been told or tried to learn the skillsets that men have used to get to where they want to go. You were taught, if you had a male mentor, which is generally speaking, what was there, but let’s just say that you had a male mentor who thought…he took you under his wing and said “You want to be the vice president of (fill in the blank), here’s the things you need to learn to do, the skillset you need to have.”

You would dutifully follow what he was telling you to do, then, maybe you got to that point, maybe you didn’t, but you learned some skills that allowed you to navigate that world. What I’m seeing now, I don’t know if you’re seeing the same things, that’s why I’m asking the question, women are moving up through the ranks with a different set of skills, instead of trying to suppress some of those things that make us who we are, like what you just talked about, comes under the column of nurturing and taking pride in seeing women move up the ranks. That sense of nurturing is something that I don’t know that I’ve seen or not seen with men who are mentors, there’s definitely pride there.

I think there’s a willingness now to allow us to feel more at home with those things that come naturally to us. Instead of trying to force them into a mold of how men do it, we’re learning to say, “Hey, this is how we do it, and you know what? It may be different, but it’s still fine.”

I think that’s an excellent point, Lynn. Excellent point and very well said. You’re right, I think it is that sense of nurturing, that sense of “It’s okay, it’s okay to be a nurturer.” There’s nothing wrong with it. Very good.

I think that’s what I’ve been hearing you say. And reading some of the information that you sent about one of the things that makes you feel so good, is to see that happen, to see the women that you’re nurturing/mentoring getting somewhere. It’s not that you told them, “You have to be rough, you have to be tough, you have to be all those other things that we thought is the formula for success in business.” I’m just thrilled to hear you say that you’re doing this and it’s working out well. You’re a good mentor, Carmen.

Thank you. I do love it. I do go out to speak to students. The one thing that I did have at Sallie was that I did have the ability to go out and speak to students, that was part of what I did, it was go out into the community and talk to students about skills that they need, how they would do it, how they would go about it, it was one of the things that I truly loved about that. Now, I just do it in a different venue, but yeah.

That’s great. I love hearing you say that, it’s very, I think, rewarding for you and for a lot of other women who are learning that it’s okay to be female. It’s not a disadvantage anymore. It’s a great thing. As you found with your ability to speak Spanish and how that worked in your favor when you were look for a job, perfect.


Let me switch this over now, I’d like to talk to you a little bit about your experience with money. Because that’s an important part of who you are today. I know we just talked so much about what your family was like when you were growing up, but the one thing I’d like to know is what was your first memory about money.

My first memory of money was my mom, she always used to tell us “You know what? A penny is heavier than a dollar.”

That’s the first time anybody ever said that. I love it.

I’m telling you. Her and my dad were… He was the breadwinner, she was a stay-at-home mom, she had some little part-time jobs that she did, but for the most part she was always there when we got up from school, she was there at lunch. When my dad, he’d come in, “I’m the breadwinner” and she’s like, “Listen” she says, “a penny is heavier than a dollar, I’m telling you right now.” She says, “My grandmother always says a penny is heavier than a dollar.”

Her philosophy was it didn’t matter, if you take those pennies and you save them and you keep saving them, it’ll add up for you. It’ll always add up for you.

Did you have an allowance?

We did not have an allowance.

How did you get anything you wanted or needed when needed money?

When we were little, we did not. As we got older, we did have an allowance, my dad gave us an allowance. I’m the oldest, then I have a sister. We got an allowance, but then, when we got our allowance we had to share it with my little brother and sister. It was always sharing with them. It was penny candy, whatever, whatever it was, we always had to share, my mom really believed in the fact that you had to take care of your family. You got to remember, she was from Ecuador. In Ecuador, that was their culture. You have everybody living close together, at one household, everybody kind of took care of the other. That’s what we did.

When we got jobs, when I worked at a nursing home, every day I would go to the nursing home, get my little check, and when I got my check, my mom took us to the bank, she said, “Here we go.” We go down to the bank, we opened up one of those passbook savings account and we had to give some money to the house, we had to put some money in the bank and then, she made us give at least a quarter, sometimes 50 cents to my little brother and sister because they weren’t eligible to work yet.

You gave them the money or you put the money aside for them?

We put the money aside for them. We put the money aside for them, yes. So that they would learn, they would have something. That’s how she did it. That was my memory of money. She always wanted to make sure. It was interesting because she would say, “You need to give money to the household because we need milk and we need eggs.” We never needed anything else but milk and eggs!

Bread didn’t come into this at all?

Bread didn’t come into the picture, just milk and eggs.

That’s funny, I love it. Milk and eggs, okay.

Milk and eggs.

What’s been the most threatening to your financial security?

You just worry, like, “Did you plan it right? Did you do it right?” I’ve learned over the years to pay attention to my 401(k), to my retirement plan, look at those statements, talk to the financial representative, all of those things. I had a friend, who has since passed away, but she was older than I was and she said, “You know what, Carmen? Make sure you look at your statement, make sure you pay attention to that. Don’t let that go to the wayside.” As you watch, hear and look at the things going on, I do worry about it. I’ve become more cognizant of it. I think I had mentioned to you awhile ago when the book that you authored, The Power of the Purse, that was intriguing to me like “Wow, the power of the purse.”

Yay, nice plug, thank you.

Seriously. That’s… It’s important, I don’t know that women really do that as much as we should.

No, they certainly don’t. That’s good. I’m glad you said that.

Yeah. I really don’t. I was one of them. When you’re in your 20s, in your 30s, you don’t think about it and you put money there. I’ve been investing with the Sallie retirement, put my stuff in there, same thing with Geisinger, not a problem. But you really didn’t pay attention to it. As the years have gone on, I’ve learned that that is something that I need to do. Now that I have a daughter, I’m, “Hey, what are you doing? What are you doing?” We have more conversations about it.

The first step in managing your finances better is to have conversations about it. Click To Tweet

Great. That is the best news.

Yeah. Seriously. Because I don’t want her to wait until she is in her 30s or 40s before she’s paying attention to that. I’m saying “Do it now, do it now, I want you to do it now.”

Don't want until your 30s or 40s to start paying attention to your retirement investments. Click To Tweet

Yeah. What do you think are some of the best and the worst financial decisions you’ve ever made?

The best is always enrolling, the worst is not paying enough attention to it.

Well said. That’s it. The best part was definitely enrolling. Because we’re talking about your 401(k). That is good, that’s excellent. The part about not following up on it is very common because the design of that is that once you get into it, you pick a certain selection, it’s supposed to be on autopilot, but it often isn’t. People don’t know enough to be able to really pull it apart and look and see. Congratulations for acknowledging that. That’s a good thing.

Right. That’s one the things that I’ve said to my daughter. Go in, establish that relationship, get to know that person, understand your finances because it’s going to make a big difference.

It sure does. Excellent advice, mom! Well done. Carmen, I can’t believe it, but I have to say we’ve come to the end of the time we have here to do this. I want to say thank you so much for having been a part of this and sharing your life, I really appreciate that. To all of you in my Power Of The Purse community, I hope today’s podcast was helpful in enriching your understanding of money and how it can help you achieve your life goals. If you’d like to spend 15 minutes on a call with me, ask me questions about your personal finances, please go to my website powerofthepursepodcast.com, select the “Contact” tab and find a time that works for you.

Carmen, before we leave, how can people get in touch with you if they have some questions?

If they have any questions, they can feel free to contact me. I am at the Geisinger Health Plan, crkahiu@thehealthplan.com. Thank you very much, Lynn, for having me. It was wonderful.

Let’s spell your last name so they can get that.

Yes, sure. C-R-K-A-H-I-U @thehealthplan.com.

Wonderful. Okay. Thank you so much Carmen Kahiu, we got that all straight, now everybody knows where to find it. Thanks again for sharing your time and your knowledge, and until the next time, thanks for listening. Remember, money is not the enemy, your ignorance of it is. Goodbye.

How to contact Carmen:

Tags: , , , ,

This is a unique website which will require a more modern browser to work! Please upgrade today!